Coaching

[doc]

coaches ,
this is a topic i am an expert in .
before i was even aware of triathlon .
i was the coaching director for  the state of queensland  ,which at that time was the mecca of the swimming world , in the results business , i held the post of australian br.s coach at this time as well
one of my jobs ,
was to set coaching syllibus , yes i had a secretary to write it up, to lecture and nurture young coaches , and to select from the level 2 groups , people who i thought would help the state in the future  as coaching potential
this was a flourishing success , as at the time queensland swimming was run by dictatorship and he was a great one
and old  rugby union coach , who was for all intense and purposes ceo .
under his watch for some 30 yrs it was the power house state , of swimming in australia .
his belief you passed the exams , then the scores meant nothing ,we picked and recruited personalities ,
to our programs , the highest marks were nearly always the dullest coaches , and thus got great jobs in the other states after we turned them down .
it helped , our cause .
People just dont understand the intricasies  and the difficulties of a champion athlete , having to deal with the talent level of mere mortals .
some are promoting  my comments on this as a coach smack down or something .
let me give you an insight into , a real coached sport with a 100 yrs of coach background
swimming .
it is common folk lore that champion swimmers make terrible coaches .
Most venture into this field , when they did so in qld ,ole greg used to raise his eyebrows to me , but be nice to them  and say do your levels and we will start you .
i would say greg where do i start them ? he would say the same thing as his little joke
out there in lane 11 ,  dont let em near any good ones, you hearing me .we had a 10 lane pool .
in swimming they , start all over again and have to prove they can handle other people problems .

i learnt so much off simon , i really did .
but it was from simon doing simon , just as  mark allen  was doing mark allen .
As dave scott had proved , just because , you made your self a champion it dont mean you can make others .
in swimming ,all three would have been given lane  6 and 20 kickboards , and a schedule of 6 hours on deck , and once more , they would have been appreciative for the chance to learn the ropes .

but in triathlon land , where real performance does not pay the bills but star struck age groupers do .
they still supa stars in the online coaching and  to me ,thats fine .
very happy many athletes dont have to  go back to work , they would struggle .
however that gives them no credibility to be able to handle a full blown pros in your face 6 hrs a day .
none ,
where is the training ground in triathlon ?
i have age groupers quoting me they are level 3 , and never had a group , not even kids , but want to debate me on if i have a better knowledge of aerodynamics  of a handkerchief.
on whats best for some athletes they have never even had the guts to say hello too , as their too star struck , and i have spent 2 yrs with 5 hours a day .
Am i qualified to make judgements ?, 30 yrs on deck ,and dealing with may be 5,000 people over that time ,
say s you better believe i am .
does a wind tunnel finding put me off what i see day in and day out in real practical terms ?, i am not that stupid
Am i qualified to make judgements on whether some one will make a great coach ?
you bet i am . 10 yrs of that was exactly one of my job desriptions.
marc and simon have one thing going for them , they are dealing with 2 people who's absolute talent
level  is massive and close to theirs , so that is to their advantage ,
but both  have displayed  the reason why they wont cut it at the sharp end , with just average people with a dream.
i tell you why?

if they were going to develop into good pro on deck coaches .
They , would have both declined the offer , with the words , "i am not ready yet ,the best advice i can give to you ,for you would be stay where you are , and if you cant , then i would go here ----- as they have more experience in coaching people at your level "
bingo .
both didnt ,
because both are doing what most of the champions do in any field and why  they dont cut it in the coaching arena
they are doing it for them selves . Not the athletes.
Hard trait to shake as it was that , and the confidence of "i know i am the best", that made them champion
athletes in the first place , and they are the very traits  that if not trained out  over time , that stifles
them from being the best coaches .
at the highest level , if you want to succeed , it must be what best for the athletes ,not what suits you !

[old grey mare]

I'm a newbie at  over 60.  I'm not a coach nor am I an athlete.  BUT I have worked with and observed many coaches and athletes in swimming, triathlon and athletics at the top of those sports.
The best coaches are the ones who believe in themselves 100%.  The best athletes figure out what they want to achieve in the world arena of their sport.  When they are 100% sure of that decision they go in search of the coach who will believe in them 100%.  If they happen to choose a coach that also believes that 100% in themselves and now 100% in the athlete you have a winning combination.  (winning the operative word could mean anything) The task is to find that combination.  I don't think it comes along or is found too often but when it does its kind of like a miracle occurs.
Here's what I see ----
The Doc lacks no confidence in the coaching department.  He has that 100% belief in Doc as a coach and he has stated that. 
"Looking for clues"  That's what he does, he looks for clues when he observes an athlete and when he spies something that he thinks he can work with, he chooses to coach that athlete with 100% belief that he has "picked" a winning combination.
The big difference with many many other coaches is that they are flattered when a high performance athlete chooses them.  That speaks loudly about their confidence in themselves. Not at 100% that's for sure.
Coaches coach at 0-100% they learn, they change they hopefully move in forward motion.
Athletes choose, they train, they race, they learn and they move on.  Maybe if they get lucky they get chosen.  That's life.

[doc]

stephen
has kindly given a lead in to my thoughts there ,
thank you
tri coaches , of the top of my head .
rob pickard (aus )
dr john hellermans  mongrel  dutch new zealand cross breed
dr darren smith (aus)
ben bright  (nz)
bill black  (uk)
joel filliol  (can)
cali         (brasil)
craig walton (aus)
siri a p plater  but mixed with loretta harrop , i respect .
as i said ,couple of other possibles,
but the jury is still out 

[jvigaray]

Hey Yoyo ,

You´re totally mistaken.
Doc has already posted here about some of the coaches that he has not also respect but also got inspiration ,
and not only from coaches but also from his athletes.
I think you´re in the wrong forum , try this http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?forum=1;

This might be a small forum but the people from TBB , coaches and athletes are great , sharing part of their tri-lifes and always helping and with age-groupers questions.
I hope I meet some of these people at IM Malaysia.

[Sugar]

doc,

what's a 'p' plater?  we got the 'L' one.

[Angela Naeth]

"P Plate" = Probation.  Don't ask why I know about this.

 

PS...I am one of the lucky ones who is going from a good coach to a great one!

[jvigaray]

Yes you are Angela , from my humble point of tri-coach-view.

Doc Hellemans , great person I was lucky to meet while traveling in NZ.
Ben Bright , proven results at UK Federation.

Chuckie , my favourite blog and excellent job with you.

[WishIWasAwesome]

Hey Yoyo ,

You´re totally mistaken.

Is there a post missing? Why are you talking to YoYo?

Not more censorship is it? YoYo's post wouldn't have been removed would it?   

[Jonathan Caron - "jonnyo"]

in the thread ''looking for clues'' Doc posted about ''Coaching''

 That post and all the one following have been move to this new thread to make it its two individual thread  as it s a different subject. So, yoyo reply are still in the other thread where they make sence as he as responding to a post on that thread!


now, perhaps you have anything to say about coaching? who do you think is a good coach??? i m interested to hear your opinion!

[doc]

chuckie did a fine job ,
and there is the difference , chuckie in a nano second  contacted me , to say he was so happy , that we could give angela  the opportunity and him as a coach , would love to watch and learn ,to make him a better coach .
there is coaching potential .
because he is giving up more than an athlete 

[LucasK]

Since I started this ironman lark, i have gone to a few coaches, ended up working with Mark Newton.

I can't say a bad word about the bloke, seems to know a lot about a lot. Has the results to back it up too it seems

[teamTBBmgr]

I'm happy for you Lucas and of course also for Mark.

[ChuckieV]

Angela told me about the vote of confidence Doc, and it is much appreciated. Methinks these other coaches can't let-go the ego and, as we know, ego defends its stance to the bitter end. As such, it halts the process that is LEARNING. As athletes we see it all the time, no more so than at the elite level, particularly in younger pros. But when it seeps into the coaching realm it's especially perilous, as it affects those tied to him/her.

How could a coach (or, for that matter, an athlete) not want to learn? And what better source than the trainers who have an extensive history of producing champions? To me it's all a complete no-brainer.

And while others may read this and claim that some of us here are kissing ass or brown-nosing, it's not that at all. It's simply being pragmatic about self-assessment. Basic sh!t if you ask me, but the very reason there are but a few competent multisport coaches in the US. But then again, the US is the very essence of narcissism, so maybe these so-called coaches (businessmen, really) are just a ramification of that.   

[Sugar]

well said Chuckie!!!   

[doc]

you know , i find it very funny , that people who dont know a person , then can ignore 30 yrs of results ,
in about 8 different  sports, then say ,that any person who agree with the above mentioned , is a brown noser or following a cult .
hihihi, their own narrow mindeness , is put down in writing , i would find that embarressing personally .
if the cult is called what works , no theory bullshit here ,just practical observations .
well i am a cult , and you better get on board , because the cults , name is not winning , but
                                                 SUCCESS !
that means different things to different people , it doesnt have to be on top of a podium , to be successful.
so , as some feel so  sorry for  me on how  people attack my afflictions , "oh i cant read it , he cant spell and all them comma's  drives me insane " hihihi  again , i would be embarressed , to show the world how shallow , i am .

the internet , is a place , where the shallow , can attack with what they need , impunity and an alias .
the ole doc , not bothered at all , as  other people , do read thru the lines , they do not see the comas
or the spelling , as an impediment , to their gaining knowledge to help them .
so he will continue to help where needed.
and me , well those that know me , know ,
i dont piss in anybodies pocket , what i say i mean , and true brown nosers , dont get the time of day from me .