Triathlete Mag Article on drafting issues @ IM WC

[javaman]

Don't want to open ANOTHER can of worms, but...
To Doc, Alex and TBB'ers - just got my nose out of the latest issue of Triathlete magazine.  Looks like WTC is looking for input on the F Pro/M AG drafting issues.  Might want to get your two cents in to them a.s.a.p. before they decide not to hear it.  According to the article they hadn't heard anything from the pros...yeah, right.   

[doc]

hi
well i believe them .
we have had difficulty ,trying to rally some women pros outside our group to support the womens only start.
it would seem the same old story of what holds the sport back .
own self interest , some like the way we can hide in the men packs .
if we are  poor swimmers ,then its not to our advantage .
so with the men .

if it were a time trial like the bikes have , my friend ,some that are stars would not be ever heard of again .
so its not inconcieviable to me that they indeed have not had a lot of imput .
the only way to really police it it  is to  break it up
and thatthen changesthe nature of the sport, and isnot feaseable for age groupers
then you lose the we race with the champs, which is a very plausable sports positive
but should the race be 1.3 swim 60 km bike and 14km run done three times
then that would  make sure for  the next 10 yrs a real triathlete wil win the race .
but
idealism  runs wild with me , i realise its not possible while the pros race with the age groupers .
plus it takesaway   the marathon atthe end ,ossibly not marketable while being so much more interesting to watch
imagine the leadership changes .

[Marilyn]

I chatted with Jimmy R himself here in Tuscon on a group ride, he really wants to see change.
 I suggested prowomen leave 30min ahead of everyone, pro men leave 15Meters in front of entire age group feild. Just like the way the Pro marathon is done. Pro Women go early first and pro men go just in front of the mass. Works for marathon.

[rebekahkeat]

Yup Doc has hit the nail on the head!!I would LOVE a half hour head start as bike is my strength but most non swimmers love the age group men pulling them though, for the ok /great swimmers its not fare as the poorer swimmers can get dragged up!
I think 30 minutes would be perfect, we had this in Port and not one Male age grouper caught me or Chrissie, I was wtill 9 minutes or more behind her lol  but it was the farest race we have had in Oz!

[DamienC]

Did they provide an e-mail address for us to provide suggestions?

[doc]

for me marylyn has it right
its already been done and dusted
but i would still say 20 min  ahead of pro men
then any pro women caught  before t1  is out .
they are not a triathlete .
the age group men need to be back 5 min from pro men
there are plenty of problems in the age group ranks also
plenty .
where a better swimmer then gets to draft off the younger age groupers he is not racing .

the girls for the next 10yrs is an easy fix
its done  already just jimmy should step up and put it in place .

the pro men is harder.

[irnbru]

I agree. It's not about the mechanism; there are anumber out there that are widely accepted as being workable, but about having the will/desire to do it.


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[Matthieu O’Halloran - "M@"]

Another point to bring up is the drafting off the lead motor cycles or the media bike with a camera man or a van or car out on the course. It does make a significant difference at high speed even when the vehicules are upthe road!!!

I have been there myself and seen it done by others...

These scenarios are often in the control of who ever is driving th vehicule but for sure the athletes have to be somewhat responsible!!

[Mina]

No, no, noooooo- I do not get any of you!!!!!! Why are you trying to complicate it all. PRO MEN go first, PRO WOMEN go next- maybe 5 mins later and then the big gap- at least 30 mins before the age-groupers get to go. Why have to pro women go off first when it is obvious that the pro men will eventually catch them- just look at 70.3 worlds- the pro men rode straight up to the women and it caused huge problems. Pro men need to race on their own, we need to race on our own and the age-groupers need their own race. Surely it cannot be that hard to work out the amount of time needed to keep the age-group men and pro women separated during the bike. And then we need race officials who have the know and the education to pull up the athletes who do draft.

[Darryl]

I have a suspicion that AG racing might end up draft legal. Contentious point but it seems like people are knowingly breaking the rules and not getting busted. I'm sure its hard to enforce but if it isn't enforced at all people will do it all the more. And if they do it all the more it would almost legitimse such a decsion for a given sporting body; ie, people are not taking responsibility for it, we canot police every body, we have no choice to take this decision.

Anyhow, here's where it gets interesting, AG draft racing = bigger fields, more revenue for organisers. In a sport which is overcrowded and where events sell out in no time this would add the capacity needed and do it very easily satisfying demand and pulling in more $/£.

The other consequence or benefit of this scenario is that Pro racing would have to be ran with sufficient gaps so that the two different codes would not get mixed up.

You can see it sliding that way already; 10m draft for Pros, 7 for AG.

I'd hate it personally and would seek out those events which remained true to the sport should anything like this happen

[doc]

 

[javaman]

Personally, I'm all in favor of getting the Pro W as far ahead of the AG M as workable.  For the W, it's "a day at the office."

How many of those AG M would like to have someone come F up their work day? (I'm in education & coaching; it would upset me!)

But I think Doc's point is spot on - while there are a number of Pro W who would be in favor (Corbin & Badmann, just to name a few outside of TBB) most would rather "game the system."

[Sugar]

And then we need race officials who have the know and the education to pull up the athletes who do draft.

Mina is on to something!!!  Officials need to be certified, educated & experienced (as in need to have X amount of hours put in officiating to work a world championship)!!!! period!!!!  I don't think even JR is certified through USAT as a draft marshal...?
All the other sports have certified umpires, marshals, referees, officiating their sports, like boxing, tennis, volleyball, netball,and swimming, etc.... why would triathlon be any different?

As for AG's... the majority are pathetic!  i've been racing for 22yrs and still amazed Ag's don't know what 7M looks like! I'm old school, I know what the race field was like in IM Hawaii and IM C went it was less than 1000 athletes. and still there was drafting. the majority of AG have ZERO integrity!!! it's that simple.

Doc's right about the Ag women who draft and then turn pro and struggle cuz they don't have 300 guys to draft off of. it's ridiculous some these AG women getting faster times then the pro women that place 5th -15th over all. it's just not the same race. AG's should never be placed in overall results, that have wave starts.

[javaman]

JR's been honest about the fact he's not USAT certified.

Endurance Nation's Patrick McCrann put out a recommendation about something Sugar & Mina mentioned - have a cadre of trained officials who work every IM/70.3 race - pay for the day's work, food/lodging expenses - might not have to work EVERY event, but would know the places where the packs are going to happen, blah, blah, blah.

You can always take the best of the cadre and use them for Kona/Clearwater.

[doc]

guys
you miss the point

acredited officials  dont change a thing , because they dont know the strength of who can ride and who cant
in the pro ranks thats the problem .
even  the who think  or should know dont , its just so amiricana

to see ronnie sheldrick have to get of his bike is plain embarressing  , its like listening to people tell me crowie is amonster on the bike
WELL PEOPLE
macca is a real monster on the bike ,  ronnie a monster on the bike , lother leader in the last generation was a monster on the bike but he got carded every yr in the first 10 km .
it was outragous ,
 meanwhile some of the american protected species   would meander over to europe
after reading their own press clippings  and just get crucified by  leder and co
in europe , they would be embarressed by lap 3 "they had puncture colds all sorts of weird things seem to happen to them  once they came out of the states."
same with the chicks, i watched em every yr
bring their  clippings over to race im swiss or  germany or the canaries
and my girls would say
"oh coach  they are really strong ,i would say  ,kid you will blow a whole right thru em .
they are paper tigers  , they dont know what a real  mountain is ,
and true enuff  , boom 1/2 way thru the first 6 km climb , the j"jet lag " had caught up to em
the tuffer ones  would tuff it out  and just get hammered .
so people
thats an intrinsic  problem  to over come right there .

now as to age groupers , its got to be an honour thing .
you cant have 30 paid for marshall s
and   some courses drafting is a fact of life .

but i  dont see why if you call something a world championship .
that  it  cant be done better .
at that race for sure their needs to be the marshalls

and it  really needs a change  of thinking from tradition
every body stays up till the last one comes in 

why not make it an all nighter ?and give the age groupers a real race
i would send the women off first then 30 min pro men
then age group  go in waves and 30 min apart
and make it a real world championship for all !
then stay up and watchem all come in later
then
PARTY ON GARTH !