2010 WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP QUALIFYING STANDARDS

[Kate Pallardy - "run4life"]

As being one who just recently entered this beautiful world of pro triathlon, I can say it is most certainly a lonely road (a little less now because of my Team  ). There is no one who helps you or guides you. For most the races, i had to run around trying to find where the pro meeting was, I also had to send about fifty e-mails to receive my first paycheck, and I had to send another crop of e-mails attempting to figure out exactly how I go about signing up for these races and who to contact. No one holds your hand that's for sure. So, when it comes to standing up against these rules or against the WTC, it is not even an option for me. No one cares about the small measly pro and all our contact with the wtc is through 1-2 e-mails a year basically telling us to bend over and we do. Plus, there is no unity among pros. I think most believe it is a man eat man world. All for one, one for all business. I hate thinking that way. We all work for the same company yet we are all so scattered. Another thing is that the WTC seems so distant. It is like a boss you never see or hear from -- who do you talk to? and I do not simply want the middle man! I would love to see a conference with all pros invited including the big guns of wtc and then have a quality discussion and while this will never happen, it seems logical. As for the idea that pros don't contribute well I would like to say that Jocelyn made a beautiful feature story on ironman.com and how about when flipping through all the magazines or reading slowtwitch interviews with the pros...trust me, people care and are interested. Now, the only thought in my head is I best get faster Sad, but what's a girl to do?

[JamesCunnama]

Okay, so it seems that the post-race drama at IM Malaysia has struck a chord with pretty much everyone involved in Ironman triathlon world-wide, and  the subsequent discussions have already had some impact, with WTC changing a rule already. Fantastic. At least we know that WTC is -listening. But it is quite obvious that the rule-change is a band-aid to stop protests – Yes, WTC will now pay more money, but it prevents the brand damage that Pro athletes sitting in a finish chute would do to Ironman. The full advertised prize money is a small price to pay for that!

Putting aside the smaller issues, like $750 for a license, who gets the license, drug testing  and Kona slots and looking at the bigger picture though:

The Ironman brand is growing. With the addition of a very healthy 70.3 series, WTC is doing better than ever. Perhaps they are getting ahead of themselves by thinking they don’t need a race at the front-end of their events though? As seen in the (more-distant) past when Kona gave no prize money, the race, the media, and subsequently the masses could quickly move to more fertile grounds. Essentially, we have come full-circle and again WTC is giving no prize money (the pittance on offer amounts to the same). All it takes now is for an event/series to offer $250K + for a win, and pay 20 deep at their event and almost every Pro would skip Kona in favour of that event. As a result, that event would get more media attention than any other long-course tri event in history, and the age groupers would sign up for it in their droves. And WTC, in a year or two, would be left reeling.

I personally would love to see that, along with dramatic athlete protests, happen. But I think that is just because it would make a great dramatic story which even Hollywood would be happy to tell! However, there is a better route. If WTC was the corporation which made the investment and offered the big money, we would not need to see the Ironman brand brought to its knees. Rather we could all celebrate it and grow with it. As pointed out in this forum, Ironman could become one of the most iconic brands in sport. It has everything the public loves.  Pain, suffering, adversity, failure, courage, success and, of course, a hero at the end. Not to mention plenty of time for commercials! All it really needs, much like Poker, Golf and other ‘boring’ sports is prize money that makes the general public sit up and take notice. And if the general public wants to see it, it will be televised. And if its televised, sponsor dollars will pour in from every angle and every cent invested will be made back with interest.

Currently we do not know what WTC is thinking or planning. Are they out to marginalise, and eventually phase out Pro’s all together? Or do they really think that their current new rules will provide a stronger, better Pro division and therefore better racing? There really is only one way to tell: We as pro’s need to meet with our estranged bosses and discuss it. Everyone likes the dramatic and has visions of the Pro’s rising up in unity and forcing the hand of WTC in a Hollywood-like spectacular, but if the pro’s can work together with WTC and plan a road-map for the success of Ironman brand, inclusive of professionals, then surely everyone will win? Some think that this will never happen and of course, if they are not interested in meeting the Pro’s then we have the answer already...

I prefer to be optimistic and perhaps this year in Kona more can be decided than just the Ironman World Champion for 2010?

[pb]

great  discussion,
here a my  inner  voices

I  think  one  point  which  hasnt been  talked  about  is the  fact,  why  many  top  age  groupers  dont  want to  race  pro,  and  one  very  strong  point  is that  for  them  its  financially more  rewarding  to  do  well as  age  grouper  in  Hawaii  as  it  brings  them (mostly )   more  sponsorship  deals than  being a  3rd  tier  pro.
I  do  think   that  if  we  want  people  to  earn  a  pro  licence (and I  do  think  that a  pro licence has to  be  something  meaningful.  Then   we  have  to pay top amateurs (pros in development) too And  you  are  then  only  allowed  to  turn  pro  when  you are  really  ready  for  it (bit  like in  cycling  where a lot of  top amateur are already  pros ). That could be  top  three  or whatever  amateur  in  one  of  those  big  races  we are  talking about.
(in  order  to  not  to  upset  age groupers  that  could  be  called  open  category  like they  often  do  in  australia)
Or again  like  in  cycling we  have  a  point  system  and  you need  to  have  a  certain  amount of  point  to race  in the  big  races (that  you earn in the  smaller  races ) like  one  of the  earlier  poster  said.
Its certainly not  a  good  way  to  allow somebody  to  race  as  pro   and  then dont  give  them  the  money  they  earned .
Having  said  this,I  always  have  docs  phrase  in my ear that,   triathlon  is not  duathlon .

 


 Is it  really  fair  to  blame  just  Ironman,for all the  problems because , they  do  what  works  for  them? They  have  gone the  road  with the  feel  good factor  for age  groupers.......I think  it the  wrong  way but  its  their  brand …... and  they  are  not  really  challenged  at the  moment  bit  like microsoft (who  has  to learn  that they  have now  competition  with  google)
 Isnt the  current problem also , that  a  lot  of  the sponsors  pay peanuts  for  sponsorship,  simply  because  they  can (we all  know the  athletes  who  race   for  5 free  powerbars
and  a  free  tri  suit  with  sponsors  on  their  gear  because  its cool ) 
And  isnt  it  also  the  problem  that  many  pros  think  I  take  the  free  gear  and  dont  give  anything  back.

Anyway  the  good  thing of the  road  M-dot   is taking,   it gives  the  chance  to  the  challenger family  ,  the  rev  3  people and  Abu  Dabi Tri   to make  long  distance  racing a  real  sport  event ,  like  the  big  4  marathons and  we  all  agree that the  big  four  marathons  are  more  valuable  than the  marathon  world  champs ;-) 
   I  think  the  Abu Dabi  tri with  250000   dollar price money in its  first year  running   is  potentially really  great  for the  sport , but   again  if  you   finish the  race  in  10th  place   it  will   cost  you   money   to  go  to  work ….... and  as  doc  says  the  people  like  Wellington, Stadler , Al  sultan,  Mc  Cormack  they are  the  ones  who  already  make  enough  money  with  sponsorship(which  is  money  they truly  deserve as they are  v  important  for the sport)  and  dont  depend  on the  prize  money.
So  the price  money  distrubution  has  to  be  fairer ( and  the  field  in  abu  dabi  is  quite  high  quality  if  we  look at the  entry list)

If they  want  to make  it a  real  sport  event  they  need  deep  fields  and  the  deep fields  they  can  only  get  if the  top  20 of a  race (and that  needs  to  be  developed  further)  dont  lose  money to  race  there . But the  athletes  have  to  give  back  not  only  demand.



I think  so  far  there  is a consensus  that  long  distance  tri   should  follow the  lead  of  tennis  and  the  Itu  to have a  few big races and  the  athlete  who  gets  the  most  points  in three out  of the  big  races  will  be  world  champ or it  could  be  grand  slam  winner  if  Ironman  is  not  part  of  it ) Big  races  with  many  spectators  (or petro  dollars) will  attract  big  sponsors

I  think  what  M dot  dosnt  understand  that   so  may  people  say  one  of the  reasons  people  do  triathlon  is  because  they  can  race  with  the  best (give  females  1  hour  head  start  and than  the guys can  start  with the  best ) .Its  true  they  dont  need the no  name pro  but   for  smaller  races the  no  name  pro  is  v  important.
So all pros  are  important  but also  people  like the  wongstar  who  have a  story to  tell  and  give  hope  to the  athletes that  you  can  improve  if you  work  hard.

  The bigger  your  pyramid   of  pro  athletes (or paid  developing  amateurs)  is  at its  base  the  bigger  the  chances  are  to  develop  a  superstar. And  in  our  socity  isnt  all  about the  superstar (unfortunately) ? Tennis  is  roger  federer  and  Nadal. Swimming  is    Phelps  and  cycling  is  Lance  and Formula 1 Schumacher . These are  the  athletes  the  Race  organicers  really  need   but  they  have  to  put  an  effort  in  to  get   them  by  developing  a  wide  base  and  since  long  distance  racing  is thankfully  not  regulated  by bureaucratic  government  federations we have  to  find  another  way. 
And that  include  race  organicer,  sponsors ,teams, 
and  more  professional  athletes  who  understand that  just full  time  training  is not  enough. They  have  to have a  value  for  the  sponsor  and  again  I  think the  wongstar  is a  prototype  of the  new  developing  pro when  she  sorts her   swimming  out.   

Currently  it  seems  everybody  is  blaming  each  other  why  the  sport  dosnt  progress as  much as  it  could   everybody  is  looking  for its  profit  forgetting  that  they  all need  each  other.

I  think  the  issue  is  how   to give  a  developing athlete  a  chance  to  step  up  into  pro  level in the  future. So  far  there  is  no  real issue  as  it  was  similar  to   running  that  you  started  in  shorter distance  and  worked  your  way  up as you  got older. I  know the  Doc  is not a fan  of  i but I  think in running  it  makes a  lot  of  sense.
Anyway in   future  this  wont  work  as  we  seen   will have  an  Itu  generation  which has  grown  up   in a  sport  where  cycling  is  only a  link  to get a  swimmer  to  the run   and  it  will  even  take  most  top  pros  some  time  to  be  competitive in the  long  distance.(i think  this  becomes  very  clear , when  those  days  federations  only  look  for  swim and  run  time trials  as  talent  identification)     
I  think  teams  like  Team TBB  are the  way  to  go for long  distance  and  if  team  Abu Dabi tri  and  Comerzbank ,  are for different  reasons  very  important.
But I  think  it also  has  been  shown  that  what  Itu  did  last  year  with an introduction  of another  level  seems  to  work  as  less  top  pros  race  in  ETU etc  level  races  giving  up coming athletes  a  better  chance  to  earn  money  in  those  races and  for  the  developing  pro  prize  money  is  crucial

And  that  triathlon  can  become  a  real  sport   is  shown   that  when  we   have a  look   at  races
like  , IM  Frankufrt ,  Hamburg     where  there  are  500 000  or  close  to  spectator  watching  a race. (no  spectators  no  money... why  hawaii, unless  hawaii  pays  really  well  for hosting the world champs ;-)
And  for Ironman  there  need s to  be  more  incentives  to have a race within  in the  race ,  like having  really  good  primes  for  people  first  out the  water  and  every   40  k m primes  on the bike  for the  fastest  split   in that  sector or  first  guy. Or  something  in the  line (the  reason  why  biathlon  is  so  famous  in  germany  is  that  there  is  excitement during  the  race  when  they shoot ) I  just  dont  think  we  can  afford  that  pros  in hawii  ride like  in  an  itu race and we  make  it  a  running  race. 

I  think  that  everybody  involved  in  triathlon has  to  lift  their  game   and  while  M dot is  v  strong  there  is  alternatives   out their  and  monopolies  are  never that  great  anyway .
 
x
p

ps  did  Ironman  really  changed its  rule  about  price  money distribution ? as  it  said  in the  years  before  (when  you  had  to  finish  within  10% off  2nd  place ) that the  unused  money  will  be  redistributed  amongst  the  athletes  finishing  in the  allowed  time so  ) 

[doc]

people ,
i would take very little notice of the way slowtwitch deems anything to be of use
my experience is ,if some one says something senseable ,it is hijacked and turned into the normal drivel .
so the pros dont count and should get on with it ,
is the answer for the superficial and have not thought of the broader implications .
three points , to clarify
1/bob nailed it on the marketing ,
the coverage is cringeful , and is one of the3 forced stratagies i talked on taking the extreme out of our sport
he should not be pillored to say build the competitive side of it up to hero status ,
watching and focussing on some one going 15 hrs , is delivering , the wrong message .
2/
you go to any tennis tournament in the world  and you get beat in the first round and if you get beat 6.0 6.0 6.0

you get payed your prizemoney for that position
no one judges ,that you played terrible today ,yo dont deserve to be paid .

3/
it cost a lot of money to get to these locations for the lower level pro with no finacial help , if people with in the organisation seriously believes these rules are going  to help develop stonger fields, with better performance ,they should resign ,because they have become totall<y out of touch with  reality .

one of the other things i have always had problems with
is athlete reps ,
not just in triathlon but every sport i have been involved with
usually they are the best athletes and as such , are totally oblivious to the troubles of a struggling less talented person , in all facets of the sport .
they are not the answer , in most cases they are the problem .
conclusion
those who think the wtc  has not thought it thru ,is sadly mistaken , the fact they might have made in some of our views taken the wrong direction ,
doesnt change the fact ,that they have thought it thru and will have strategies in place to counteract
dissention
the new rule change
is a passive one ,
again a failure , in the long term as any winner that decided the extra pieces of gold is incentive enuff to not think  of the difficulties and  the woes of their fellow pros
is again seriously mistaken .
fair days pay for a fair days work is all that should be asked for 10 deep

personally i dont care about the 8% or 4% of world championship
the 2 issues are completely seperate
any way we dont have a fair womens championship anyway
however chrissie has made it at least credable now , history has had too many years of men assisted
results
but that too is another debate
lets
stick with being fair
top 10  and pay the money no matter how far your behind
that is a no brainer debate
lets not muddy the waters

[markyv]

Hi all,

I am hoping to get a note out in the next day or two to a list i've compiled of professionals scattered across the globe, would love to include you all on there just so that we can begin a thread of discussion.  Have observed the dialogue here and chatted a bit with Brandon

I like a lot of what Doc has posted, it aligns with many of my thoughts.  More on that in my email. 

We cannot get overly emotional on this.  Once emotion is tossed into a discussion you then have an argument.  We need to take the moral high road and be objective.  We also need to have unity and solidarity and most importantly when engaging those who are making these dictates to show them how WE can make them more money.  We have to remember that we are not "pure sport".  That is left to the NGO's.  This is a corporation we are dealing with and with them "bottom line" out weighs "pure sport" 10-to-1. 

Had a great chat with Belinda this evening...her words were absolutely stellar and furthermore some communication i've had with Chrissie and Dede and Catriona gives me great hope that we are standing (both the fast athletes and the up and comers) as one in this against those who think we will simply lay down and take it.  However we need a male voice in all this as well.

To sum up these very scattered thoughts (late...verwy verwy sweepy)... I believe that our "anger" with the current situation is hinged upon once simple thing... courtesy.  The courtesy to ask "US" what "WE" think.  Given that these moves were likely already in motion around kona time the topic could have been brought up for discussion at the pro meeting in kona or at the very least be leaked and then left to us to discuss amongst ourselves.  Instead it was laid upon us with no warning nor do we have any idea from where these dictates are originating from.  It is this lack of transparency and forthrightness that is the root cause of our mis givings.  To a degree i believe in having some sort of standards but at the same time feel like "they" are double dipping.  70+ global races with professional fields and they want to have better competition so are instituting it through cut offs?  how about we just cut off the number of races... raise the purses... deepen the payouts... concentrate the talent... and get a better TV contract for them. 

okay... bed.    hope to chat more with you all on this topic a lot more very soon. 

g'night! 

[markyv]

oh yeah... one other thought

"what are we needed for?"

seems to be a question that arises quite often.  I think that our presence legitimizes these "events" as "races".

Without us at the front of the race it's just some glorified century ride with a swim and run attached to it. 

[doc]

what the new owners have done, is bought a brand , what they have failed to see yet
is the biggest asset they bought was a whole sport .
itu
will never encroach on their turf .
other players are minimal .

should they want to enhance the brand to a world wide phenominon
they have the vehicle, sitting right there .
make it a big show piece .
not a hit a giggle amatuer hour , for mid life crisis .
the bigger they make the  pro side of the sport ,
the bigger the age group side
and the
bigger the BRAND.

EVERYONES  A WINNER  THEN

[Sugar]

the figure heads of WTC are having a mid life crisis, just look at their behaviour. 

[Huggy Bear]

just put on IMNZ to watch the start online - 40mins before the off. It says on the bottom of the screen that there are 18 other people watching!! They could do with some more.

[Huggy Bear]

this number went up to 95.
there's no sound and picture is cr*p

There are 238 people watching a womens college tenpin bowling practice session.

Now I really think they could do with building the pro side and their brand a bit!

[markyv]

again... agree on all accounts.

to get better TV contracts and media and attention you don't create focus on MOP or human interest.  Participant level sport will only go so far.  The real money is in spectator sport.  This is why i would like to gain unity amongst our ranks and be able to approach THEM with money making propositions utilizing us (racing) that will have us both winning in the pocket book.  I still get the impression (given the behaviour as of late) that they believe this a zero sum game.  It is anything but.

If you are interested in getting in on this note please email me... markvanakkeren -at- gmail -dot- com

i appreciate your input. 

what the new owners have done, is bought a brand , what they have failed to see yet
is the biggest asset they bought was a whole sport .
itu
will never encroach on their turf .
other players are minimal .

should they want to enhance the brand to a world wide phenominon
they have the vehicle, sitting right there .
make it a big show piece .
not a hit a giggle amatuer hour , for mid life crisis .
the bigger they make the  pro side of the sport ,
the bigger the age group side
and the
bigger the BRAND.

EVERYONES  A WINNER  THEN

[BrianShea]

oh yeah... one other thought

"what are we needed for?"

seems to be a question that arises quite often.  I think that our presence legitimizes these "events" as "races".

Without us at the front of the race it's just some glorified century ride with a swim and run attached to it. 

Mark,

I have a feeling the 100+/- AGE GROUPERS who are finishing ahead of you in Kona may disagree with the amount of legitimacy you are adding to the race.

You make many valid points in your posts, but when you make a comment like this & tell 99.9% of the athletes in the race that without your inclusion it's not a legitimate race, you're not gaining many friends from the pool of athletes funding your ability to race as a professional. In following your logic, without Crowie, Chrissie, etc... in the field, the race is just some glorified century ride with a swim and run attached to it.

What if at your next IM/70.3, you're sitting at the press conference, Crowie stands up, points to the others at the table & says: "Without ME at the front of the race it's just some glorified century ride with a swim and run attached to it."

Do you agree with him? I'd suspect you don't as it would be a ludicrous statement, but in my opinion you've done exactly that. In essence, you're standing on the beach in front of 2,000 age groupers at your next IM, drawing a line in the sand and telling them that those athletes on <<this>> side of the line are what gives the race legitimacy & without their inclusion, it's just an event & not a race.

True/False? Are there subsets in the pro ranks that add legitimacy & those who detract from it? It would seem this is the EXACT thing you're trying to avoid among the pros.
---
Brian Shea
President/Head Coach
www.PersonalBestNutrition.com

[cathcam]

You're right it doesnt do much to serve the development side of things.

How do they distribute the prize money to those in the 8%? Does the winners prize go up?

Huggy, I think the point is that not all the current crop of top pro's will retire at once... and so the WTC effort is clearly focussed at developing a group of ELITE professionals who can pretty much be depended on to bring home th results at each and every race. To make sure the WTC can get the best advertising and promotion out of those ELITE athletes. Without this, they'll never break into major televsion coverage which has to be the WTC main objective as it feeds the brand and feeds their profit if they can license the races and TV coverage.

Having a bunch of random, junior, development athletes come through and win the races doesn't help the WTC, doesn't help branding and promotion and doesn't help advertising and TV coverage. What they want is as I said before, a Forumula One racing style group of elites, from which they can pretty much predict who is going to win races, sure they want some challenge but only from within predictable ranks...

[Huggy Bear]

What would you say the 'pathway' to becoming one of the elite
is?

[Matthieu O’Halloran - "M@"]

Hey my position as a pro is that I did not come into this sport to make money. And if WTC wants to standardize and professionalize their brand, they should start with themselves.

If the age groupers want to help with that, then they can pressure WTC this way, by protesting when a race has:

Shit carbo load dinner
Dangerous and hazardous swim course
Poorly briefed volunteers
Poorly designed bike course
Way too much vehicular traffic on the bike course
Screw top bottles on the bike course
Media motor cycles that zig zag and sometimes knock athletes off their bikes
Run out of supplies at the aid stations in mid-race
Ugly finisher’s shirt
Etc.

This is not at all WTC events, but I have experienced this and heard horror stories about a few.