tamsins' blog

[pb]

Tamsin
Intersting  read.
As for PNF  i think the  guy  with the  opinion  that  she  quit , would  have  had a  good  point  if she really  had  collapsed  when  she  was  passed. But the  way  it  looks  like  she  was  not  aware  of  her  suroundings  and she  collapsed before  she  was  passed.  of  course  in her  uncouncious mind,  the  fact that  it  was  her  last  race  might  have  played a little part  in  it, but  personally, I think the  way  she  was  uncordinated and  especially  how  she  reacted when  she  run  into the marshal, showed she  was really done. and the  way  she  got  up after she  run  into the  marashal showed  she had  not  quit. (I  think  the  tank  was extremly  close  to  be at,or  was, zero  and  who  knows  how  many  meters  more   before  she  would  have  been  another  Chris  Leagh)
I  think  she  dealt  extremly  well  with  the  situation and  kept  calm.and  quiter  quit   long  before  the  stage  she  was  in. But  i  think  her  case  was  one  of the  few  casese  where  the  tank  was  really  empty (isnt  it  intresting  to  see  that  at  IM  it  seems  to  be  the  females are  the  gender  who empty the  tank more than the  guys  and ignore  the  red  light ;-)  . 
my  2  cents 

   

[Tamsin Lewis - "sportiedoc"]

Hey there....

I would agree with you that it looks like PNF had s e r i o u s l y run down to zero on the fuel gage. When she stopped she looked pretty delirious. The argument that the physiologist gave that this was a conscious decision to stop is probably true though. At this point she simply couldnt take the pain anymore. One could argue that she was 'delirious', but I doubt she would meet medical criteria for such, given she spoke coherently to the spectator and her boyfriend (now husband).  Interestingly she said she felt like she was going to die... and repeated such a few time during her 20 minutes on the ground. However, what changed during this 20 minutes as alledgedly she only took on water.... which wouldnt have done alot to have improved any 'delirium' ... which may have been caused by a combination of sodium depletion, dehydration and hypoglycaemia.... and her subjective experience of being near death.

So the psychological here is her saying she just cant go on... and repeating this over and over.... I might die if I go on... but would she have.... given her relative recovery to get up to walk over the line.... just 20 minutes later... the answer would be no.  But she told herself that this may be the case and hence shutdown. i'd say this is an extreme case of course,....

But the lesson is... when you think you cant go on/harder and the pain is too much... evidence would suggest that you can... you just have to shoot the devil in your ear telling you that you cant.... and push through...

Although if it were me ... I'd want to make bloody well sure that there was a good medic waiting for me at the finish line!!  (just in case )

[Huggy Bear]

I find this a fascinating area - all I can think of is questions though?
1 - is it super elite will power that meant she carried on to breakdown? There are 'fun-runners' in the marathons who get themselves to this state and carry on - are they driven on this level?
2 - The mind protecting the body must be true up to a point. But why didnt it tell her to slow down and conserve? I guess her over riding that thought got her in that state.
3 - I suppose what you're saying Tamsin is to find the middle point between the two to optimise the result?

Lastly and on a different topic - 20mins like this surely way too long? I'd say she was out of the game. The Julie Moss crawl may have made the sport big but what if this has turned for the worse? Seems like Huddle was the only one to be doing something useful and with urgency. In boxing at least you have a ref to step and stop it. Sadly it doesnt always work there though.

[Tereza Macel - "TMac"]

 I have always thought this was another one of those insane moments that ironman is known for. Although in this one it seems much more of a physical limit, notice how Sean keeps looking back- she is still racing. Crazy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTn1v5TGK_w

[Paul Hank]

You're bang on T-Mac......killing themselves for fourth place.

I love both these women for this - my favourite Ironman momemt bar none

[pb]

Tamsin,

I really  dont know  the  case  well  enough and  I think  this  is a   in  any case  is a hard  one, and I  guess  we  agree  to  win  hawaii more  often than  any  athlete  ever, neeeds a  v  strong  mind in the  first  place and  a  mind  that  can  deal  with  pain  better  than most  ever  in the  sport.

I  feel  she did  not  quit becasue  of the  pain,  I  feel  she  quit  she  was really  was  done , or  maybe  she  quit  becasue  she  was  seriously  worried  that she  would die  ( and  people  have  died  in  situations  like that or  have woken  up  on  a  life  support  machine ) 
  I  would  say its  unlikely  that  people  quit a race  the  last  1 k  before  the  race finish, as  you  normaly  do get the  relief, that  close  to the  finish  line,  realising  you   made  it and  you do  get  through a  pain  which  maybe a  k  32 would  make you  dropp  out.

 
  Anyway  I  agree  very  much  with  what  you  call  the lesson,and  you  wrote  a  real  educational  blog, I   just   might  not  agree 100%  with  using  PNF as an example.


   

[doc]

people the debate , is not that simple .
pnf  won more ironman races than any body ever has , and their is a time in your career ,that the doubt
can kreep up on you , or it can hit in an instant ,
im a boxer  ricky hatton , a monster  42 fight wins beat 2 greats , gets knocked out
then he gets knocked out again , may supa champs , do the same win like the unbeatable but once
beaten , they lose their mental edge pnf no different , seen it 100 times .  she hadnt planned on getting beat , and when the notion hit her whaen physically at her most vulnerable , her body shut down .
the proof that it was  mental is there in the form guide , she never again raced at the same level  as previous to that race , but she kept finnishing .
it was the  water mark of her career , unfortuneatley for her it was so very public ,
but only garnered more respect , she took it like a champion .
you are dabbling  in psycho babble , toing and froing ,  the point the article is correct in its assumption
that pain levels can be tolerated  more than individuals think , depending on the circumstance .
same set of parameters given ,some will react different to , by just their position in a race .
some if after the podium , will have a new lease of life where if the thought of podium is gone , they react negatively to the pain .

that is the musings of tamsin and made such a great article i put it on the front page , had she been challenging for the lead , or the podium , dr lewis would and wil hurt more than most
but if its a tuff fight for 7th or 9th
well her  more recent past has educated her to fight another day .
that is her and many other peoples dilemma .
got nothing to do with pnf .
she was a supa champ , and quitting had no place in her kit bag .
she realised her time was up , right when her body was under enormous  pressure and she did not practice a control mechanism for when my invinceability is defeated ,
no real champion does .

[Huggy Bear]

Too much thinking Doc, you probably right.
When I look at again I think - there's no way she quit, she drove herself in to the ground (don't racehorses do that?)
Sport is so public, especially boxing. The first time I went to see a mate fight and it dawned on me there that it was the two of them in the ring and 500 people watching every move, body language - the lot. In most of our races theres 500 people racing and about 2 watching - you can quit, fail whatever with no audience.
(boxing and horses in same paragraph - Doc could have a field day here!)

[DamienC]

Coincidentally, slowtwitch is doing extracts from a book covering PNF and her implosion at the moment.

[doc]

you dont win 22 ironman if you have any quit in your body
but here is the ultimate mind body what do i do and pull wrong option .
roberto juran ,
the tuffest hardest fighter  there has been no more harder guy in the sport .
he came in the sport with the facial scars  , as a 15 yr old
the scars , well they from  paid knife fights in his home town  , and yes before the age of 15 he always said he thought putting gloves on was cheating .
now what he is remembered for
the no maas fight with  leanard ,
now  duran went on to win 2 or 3 titles more and in the sad end he was still fighting guys in lifght heavy weight at 50  meanwhile in his prime was a light weight .
so here was this old man and a dwarf in height with this huge belly battling some of the worlds best .
and some still wouldnt fight the fist of stone then ,
they said
he a career wrecker , he never gives in even at 50 , you hit and bloody him he spits the blood at you and says sonny im going to teach you a lesson and then goes about dismantling them with sheer forcer of will as he  loves to fight .
but in history he goers down as no maas , so people who dont know boxing ,  or young come into it and think the fist of stone  because of one moment of mental  dissorientation was a quitter .
so lets not let all this implosion stuff now ,
effect or infect the new people coming into the
sport
pnf , was the greatest triathlete female at  hawaaii.
and that is how she should be remembered

[pb]

well her  more recent past has educated her to fight another day .
that is her and many other peoples dilemma .
got nothing to do with pnf .
she was a supa champ , and quitting had no place in her kit bag .
she realised her time was up , right when her body was under enormous  pressure and she did not practice a control mechanism for when my invinceability is defeated ,
no real champion does .


Lots of truth and  wisdom  in those  few  lines.

When  I  look  back  to  my  racing,  postponing  the fight for  another day,  is  what I  would  call  the  biggest  mistake I  made, and  once  you  think that  way  (which  certainly  has  some pros too)
you set  yourself up  for  failure  as  you  dont  fight  when you need to  fight  most.  (the more  you  train  to  dig  yourself  out of a  whole  in a racing  the  better  one  will  become  at  it)
its a   pricelss skill,  and  i  guess  worth  much more  than  the  pricemoney,  you  could win  in a  race that  goes  well after  quiting.

[doc]

its the wisdom of 36 yrs as a professional coach , watching champions from an objective position ,in many sports , what happend to pnf is not uncommon, as is the musings of dr tam ,
her problem is there for all to see , contemplation of all the options ,
where the less active mind would concentrate on one thought ,