The Bubble

[not2fast]

I truly admire Scott Molina as a triathlete. However, I read and then listened to Scott's criticism of Brett's coaching techniques on IM Talk. He claims they are not for the age grouper. In my view, his criticisms are unfair and unwarranted. Scott claims Brett lives in a bubble and that his methods would not work for the age grouper. He goes on the claim that there is something hollow about the comment that Brett made by stating that a main swim set of 4 x 200 in the pool wouldn't properly prepare an age grouper for an IM swim. Seems to be good coaching advice to me. What does not seem to be good advice is Scott's desire to coach a 50 year old women who was a coach potato for an Ironman she signed up for. He is going throw her in the weight room, have her do some stretches, and a few 200's in the pool and she is ready to go? Where is his "context" as he calls it on how he is going to transform this lady into an Ironman in a few months? Maybe the best advice to give her would be "you signed up for the wrong race?" I am an age grouper coached under the Team TBB methods and those methods are nothing like Scott insinuates Whether Brett works with age groupers or not, his methods do and that is what counts. Age groupers, if you are looking for clues, you have come to the right place.   

[doc]

thank you for your thought , but ole doc , dont need no protection , scott seems a nice man , when i meet him
he was a very good athlete , and  now has a nice life living off the back off that , and good luck to him ,
but we are in 2 different worlds , he is in the life style giig .
im in the performance business .
he wear liycra, i wear a track suit , i coach and he participates , its unfair to judge his coaching skill
with mine ,
bit like judging me on my triathlon skill  , i never did it,  just like scott

[DamienC]

To clarify, I haven't listened to the podcast yet, but reading the blog, I can understand where Scott is coming from.

Like you say Doc, Scott is talking from the perspective of a lifestyle triathlon coach, not (necessarily) as a performance triathlon coach.  And in that context, maybe he is right.  Maybe getting a complete novice to do 40x100 isn't a good idea, maybe just getting them to make it round under cut-off is all they want to achieve.  But I have to ask: if you are worried about making the swim under cut-off, why not do it in training?  40x100, at the pace you want/need to do to make it round, will not only give you a great workout, but the confidence to know you can make it.

Everyone has to start somewhere I suppose...

[Triathlon789]

I've listened to both interviews on IM Talk and I think we're talking about apples and oranges. 2 different coaches, with 2 different philosophies for 2 distinct groups of athletes, the weekend warrior type and the guy (girl) who wants to make some serious improvements.

Great interviews from the guys on IM Talk, it's great to get different views from different people; then it's up to you to decide on your triathlon path. Train smart all! 

[doc]

exactly ,
right sir
but you know one thing
the course they got to get around is exactly the same distance no matter what spin you put on it
if you cant or dont want to swim 40 x100
you have no right to be in an iron man event .
thats what training is for .
 

[Brandon Marsh - "-Tex"]

I've debated and debated on how best to reply.  I read the epiccamp blog and listened to the podcast while figuring out some TBB coaching stuff.  I don't know what point exactly Scott was trying to make.  The main thing that he was trying to say was that Brett's comments needed to be taken in the right 'context'.  My reaction to that is, what interview doesn't have to be taken in the right 'context'?  Is that something that needs to even be said?  In this day and age, I guess it does.

That's probably why McDonald's has to put a disclaimer that the coffee may be hot.

At the end of the day though, the race is 2.4 miles of swimming, 112 of biking, and 26.2 of running (4k/180k/42k).  I would wager that 9 times out of 10, the best way for all athletes to get to the finish line in that length of a race is to spend as much time as they can reasonably spend swimming, biking, and running.

[Fegan]

As one of the biggest IMTalk groupies and a target age grouper paying for TBB coaching I was quite interested to see where this was going to go. I also read the blog and listened to the podcast and it was pretty much what I expected.

I know Bevan and John weren't 100% comfortable in what ole Doc was saying, especially John as a coach who makes a living out of 3 weeks build and one easy, prescribing yoga, stretching and advocating power meters to have the rug pulled from under his feet by one of the best tri coaches in the business. If you're paying $100 per month and listening to Doc lampooning the programme you're paying for, its going to make you start to question the choices you've made.

I firmly believe in what has been said on this forum multiple times - pick your method and stick with it! And for people like me with looooots of capacity to grow, consistency of any kind will give results above any magic workout type.

Triathlon is quite unique in the older age group mass participation sports in that a high number of people pay for coaching. When I signed up for a marathon, I didn't think I needed a run coach, I was happy enough with a runners' world freebie 16 weeks to 3:30.

If I learn to swim I may sign up for a block of 10 lessons but I'd not expect to continue to pay month on month for swim workouts.

Yet with the afluent tri market (lifestyle choice), there seems to be a different mindset and so a whole growth industry of ex-PTs and age group athletes have filled this void all on the back of reading Joel Friel's training bible. The same people that paid for 3X12 reps of weights are now paying for triathlon coaching. Most of these guys see the tri coach as a lifestyle accessory and not as a tool to extract the best possible results given the customers circustances.

In case any IMTalk listeners are lurking about, I've had a fantastic 6 months so far with Scott as my coach. He's tailored my training from coming back from 8 months of doing next to nothing, the birth of my second child, changing jobs and the availablilty of training facilities and responds to my many questions.

My first week didn't have a track session, 40X100 swim or anything else that's being banded around as an example of inappropriate sessions. Indeed my first swim set was "Go get wet". Over the 6 months, I've worked up from 15X100 up to 30X100 and more. My run now involves track sessions but I've been instructed how to do the samething on a treadmill or in the local park. I know my training plan is MY training plan, not some auto-generated one-size fits all programme that has less "context" than the communication and trust I have with Scott.

As Brandon mentions, its impossible to set the context of an interview properly, or discuss ever scenario, so generalisations will be a-plenty. You can pick holes in what anyone has to say, there's always someone who's had great success doing things different to everyone else, this doesn't mean that shoots down the protocols or methods of everyone else doing things differently.

To summarise in a sentance or two- People come to TBB to be the best they can with what they've got and are willing to commit. If that's what you want then I can think of no better service available. If you're looking for a "badge" or "lifestyle accessory", someone to listen to how you're too busy and important to commit to more than 5 hours per week and that you need to keep the sessions easy, then this probably isn't the right home for you - but worry not, there's plenty of people that can copy and paste from Don Fink's training for time efficient Ironman or whatever, listen to your problems and charge you handsomely for the privilege.

And now Fegan, breathe......

[bob]

My reaction to that is, what interview doesn't have to be taken in the right 'context'?  Is that something that needs to even be said?

I think one has much more context to explain with promoting epic training camps for age groupers, then with doing 40 100's in a pool.

This age grouper thinks 40 100's is not a bad bubble at all. And with a few paddles the bubble gets even better 

[pb]

fantastic  post  fegan
but  something  tells  me  you  will have a  mail  form your  coaching expressing that  you  would have better  been  training  while  writing ;-)

[Fegan]

More likely to be my project manager saying i should be working! SSssh!

[paddy]

a bubble might not do me any harm

[Sugar]

nice post brandon and fegan.

i think scott M is coming from a place of fear, jealousy and ignorance.  for him to base his opinion on one pod cast and not come to this forum and get a feel and understanding and facts right, of what brett is doing, shows his lack of understanding.  oh well shame on him.

Of course IMtalk coaches were abit taken back from what brett was saying. pretty much everyone is following the same old one size fits all JF coaching for too many years. even mark allens is one size fits all. from what i can see,  brett is the only one who personalizes to each individual athlete mentally and physically. which i think is complete genius and a talent that no other coach has. to have 29+ world titles with all different types of athletes is remarkable.

[doc]

fegan ,
thank you for pointing out the real way we go about business .
i have just got my first complaints from a camp im doing from the swiss un23 team .
they all were scared to death about coming and 2 camps later they , the little soft ....
are saying we thought  there would be more training when do we  do that work we read about ?
i said
when your ready  HURRY SLOWLY
 all in good time , your bodies not ready for it we have to build to a level , still they said but its not what we thought
so i gave em a birthday party , just to let em know the work is here when they ready .
thats the key
but for now this is your training level , im told first 2 camps with no injury in 5 yrs .
must be luck .
sugar took the time to come and see first hand how  gulagish our camps are ,and bob
well done
i was waiting for some one with the perception to point out the oxy moron , of having a go about 40x100
and then giving people a week of hell that most go home and take 3 weeks off to recover from .
such 
redicoulous coaching behaviour is beneath me , to even comment on .
people ,we look after our own here , and if bevan didnt want an honest answer he should not have asked ole doc ,
here we tell it how we see it , and we are not fragile enuff to be worried by the out comes 

[Sugar]

it was the best experience EVER in my time in triathlon to pay a visit to camp in leysin. Thanks in part to BeckyMay, Brett, Lilly, Jodes, Emma, ScottyD, jamesi, and Bek     i hope to make it back it back if i can 

I've be racing since 1988 like slow talkin' tex(brandon). I just happen to have been born & raised in the mecca of Encinitas(looking back, a curse and a blessing, i suppose) I have trained and been coached by the supposed best in the sport.  Let you tell you one thing, all of  the knowledge of those pros and coaches doesn't even compared to the knowledge of Brett hands down.  all i got was 'do what i do' it will make you a champ like me. as we know here, everyone is different, there is no one size fits all. in the past 4 years i have tried new coaches, and from my experience just because someone has been coached by brett doesn't always mean they 'get it'. they also gave me what worked for them, and certainly didn't work for me, got me fatigued beyond belief for over a year.  Since Beckymay took me under wing last april, she has got me back on track. i've been on the podium in all my important races expect for one.  which i am very happy and grateful for. i am super excited to see what i can do this year with more guidance from beckymay and brett. Brett's s swim tip was magic for me, when he saw me swim. Now between beckymays swim sets and brett's tip, i'm leading the swims in my age group and finishing on the podium. thank you!

to all age groupers, only trust the team tbb coaches, period!!! the rest are only impostures honestly.  learn from my mistake.

[doc]

thank you ,
for your thoughts ,im humbled but we try our best , i have a big background in coaching and thus a history in it thats hard to replicate , its just experience , but what im doubly happy about , is the ringing endorsement of becky may preston
she was a great athlete , but i always was taken  by her intelligence and teaching skills .
they are top class , just like i saw in siri lindley , she does get it as sugar says , and im very proud that she has stayed on to do some coaching with us .
my next step is to see if we can take it the next step further .