bike strenght session

[lévrier]

Hi everybody,
question about a workout on a spin bike , 30 * (1mn "all out" against hard resistance at low cadence/1mn easy)
Even if i know that "all out" must be "all out", and that percepted effort must be a priority, i must say i have a powertap on my bike, and i would like to have a reference about the wattage i should try to push when i do the One minute all out.
For example, if my maximum aerobic power is 330 watts, and my thresold aroun 260w, what would be the goal for my minute all out ?
thanks and best regards

[adal]

Hi everybody,
question about a workout on a spin bike , 30 * (1mn "all out" against hard resistance at low cadence/1mn easy)
Even if i know that "all out" must be "all out", and that percepted effort must be a priority, i must say i have a powertap on my bike, and i would like to have a reference about the wattage i should try to push when i do the One minute all out.
For example, if my maximum aerobic power is 330 watts, and my thresold aroun 260w, what would be the goal for my minute all out ?
thanks and best regards

Had that discussion on ironguides (when they still were teamtbb's age group program): http://www.ironguides.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=86

"Far in excess of threshold" ... was the answer there.

For me, "far in excess of threshold" is easily possible on the hoods, but difficult in the aerobars, due to lack of torque.

[Matthieu O’Halloran - "M@"]

Hey lévrier the best term I can use to describe should be BEST AVERAGE ON THE DAY!

If you place expectations on your sessions in terms of times or wattages.
Would might end up disapointed or under-doing your session.
Or simply OVERTHINKING your improvements or lack off over the weeks/months/years.

A good approach is to PROGRESS through your workout.
Where you will get training: bellow - at - above, your BEST AVERAGE for that set.

I once meet a very good run coach who told me that his runners improved dramatically.
When they stopped doing their mile repeats on the track and simply ran 4:30 intervals out on the road.
Some days they ran a bit more than a mile, other days they ran a bit less.
Mentally, they simply focused on DOING THEIR BEST!

[Brandon Marsh - "-Tex"]

Matt's answer is a good one, and the only 'but' that I will add to it is...but it is hard for some athletes to just go with best average or best of the day.  It just isn't in the typical mentality of a Type A triathlete to ignore what the numbers say for a key workout...we try to focus on keeping it simple.  I think that a powermeter can be a great training tool, but it should not be the end all be all of a workout if you don't hit your numbers.

The workout given is a strength session.  So, what a truly stronger athlete can do will be much different than what a not as strong athlete can do.  So, if you are glued to the powermeter and need a watts number, shoot more for a general number than a specific one.  Honestly, the Ironguides answer of well far in excess of threshold for a session that is a 30 minute session of 1 minute intervals that are probably 45-60rpm is not a great answer.  What is 'far in excess'? Is it 20%...312 watts for you?  Chances are very good that 'most' athletes will not be able to ride well in excess of their threshold at a cadence of 50rpm.  And 'most' athletes will have a hard time riding 20% above their threshold for a total of 30 minutes in a single workout.

I could go on, but since you asked about a general number, I would start out with shooting for your 260 watts since your cadence is much lower for the prescribed workout than it was when you determined your 260 watts.  If that's too easy, then build throughout the workout as Matt suggested.  Anyone can be a hero the first 1/2 of the workout.  It's the 2nd half of the workout where the real magic happens.

[lévrier]

thaks for the great answers guys 

[DamienC]

I tell people that are new to powermeters, HR monitors, etc, that for those first few sessions, do the session on perceived effort, and then compare that AFTERWARDS to the data.  Doing that over a period of time will allow you to gauge where you "should" be.  But remember, all of these toys are merely tools, and should be seen as such.  For example, if you use a HR monitor, and you notice that your heart rate is way out of the range it should normally be, there may be something else going on in your body that you haven't picked up on, that may require you to back off the training for a few days.  Time and experience will teach you when to do that, because the greatest piece of training equipment sits between your ears.

[doc]

i agree wit damien , only backwards as im dislexic
all these tools are merely toys for those not truely focussed on the real deal .

[adal]

Great tips here ...

Just one question, I (thresold 270-280) have 4 options for that workout:

1. Indoor on the aerobar -> about TH Watts possible
2. Indoor on the hoods -> about 290-300 Watts possible (sometimes)
3. Outdoor on the aerobar (uphill) -> Watts fluctuating average lower than TH
4. Outdoor on the hoods > Watts fluctuating, efforts higher than TH but lower than 2

Whats the best option? Outdoor the average is lower, because some momentum is always helping and applying the breaks leads to more momentum change, just don't get even within the minute ...

I rotate between 4 (on a cyclocross bike on a gravel uphill when the weather is fine), 2 and 1  currently. Well currently until 3 weeks ago, when I started training for a late november marathon for some strange reason and stopped intensive cycling and swimming eating miles at the track instead :-)

BTW even if bad for triathlon, it is fascinating, how fast running times improve, once there are only 3 hard sessions per week and the rest is easy pace r/b/s. Had some real fun on the track lately and feel great as I seem to recover while preparing for that marathon ... crazy :-)

PS (modified): Just realized, this is 30*1 minute, which I never did by now, I always do 20*1 minute ...
Any tips, when to choose 20 or 30 ....

PS2 (second modification): Just cursed, that stuff is complicated, I thought riding a bike is easy. But "Each effort is the best you can do for that effort. That means yes, you will tire towards the end of the session -- that is the point. Work hard then, at full EFFORT to get the maximum result from training. The low cadence and duration with equal rest keeps your heart rate down enough not to have to worry about aerobic overload on this set. In other words, you do not need to worry about "pacing" yourself -- lost opportunity if you do this.
" is directly opposite to the tips given here of building the effort and going for best average, right?

Or do I get totally totally confused now?

[Fegan]

Wow....

KISS - shove it into the biggest gear 53/12 or 53/11 and go hard (see Scott's post on the levels of perceived effort) then recover for 1 min then repeat. At end if session stagger off the bike and get in the shower.

If indoors the quality of the session is measured in litres of sweat left on the floor. More sweat means a tougher session.

[DamienC]

The biggest mistake people make with training is overthinking the session.  Just go hard, if you think you could go harder, you aren't going hard enough!  If your knees pop out your skin, you were doing it right.  Power is power, go hard or go home.

[doc]

fegan
is from docs world , i dont know who you are but very good advise
could nt have said it better myself
keep it simple sutto
was the name given to me by sniggering sports science grads with their brilliant minds they thought they were belittling me ,
as another couple of my not very "talented " athletes smashed the shit out of their chosen ones  .
education does not guarrantee intelligence ,
complication does not guarantee success.

[as0l0]

of every race i've ever seen, everyone had a look up at the clock right near the end.  he is the only guy whose opinion matters.  he starts counting at the beginning of the day and no matter if you broke a chain or put out more or less power, he takes no excuses and makes no allowances.  you can but and if for years and years, the clock will never listen.

[endoverend]

Wow....

KISS - shove it into the biggest gear 53/12 or 53/11 and go hard (see Scott's post on the levels of perceived effort) then recover for 1 min then repeat. At end if session stagger off the bike and get in the shower.

If indoors the quality of the session is measured in litres of sweat left on the floor. More sweat means a tougher session.

So, now we have another random variable to add to RPE & HR, the sweat-ometer! FFS!   

Watts is watts people (and as Damien said 'power is power') and the only accurate way to measure bike intensity - sure, go rely on RPE and you'll be climbing off the turbo-trainer well before the powermeter user who can't cheat himself or his coach!   

Just to provide a little balance to the thread...........

[kristymuir]

"sure, go rely on RPE and you'll be climbing off the turbo-trainer well before the powermeter user who can't cheat himself or his coach!"

.....OR, you'll be pissing off your Team TBB coach because you took the session on it's own instead of looking at the whole picture....your "wattage" or whatever might be way down because you've just had the biggest training week of your life, in which case a good coach would be disappointed you weren't more smashed from the week just done and were able to still produce those wattages......don't overthink it

[jodie]

maybe you got lighter?
just put 100% in and get on with it.........i randomly look at wattage on my computrainer but very very dependent on if i do it on grass or concrete or floor.