Devils Advocate

[jozz]

Matthew,

Just read your post about Ron Clarke. Good read. With that article in mind I'm curious about your take on what my friends by into. They figure out their HR zones "using math and formulas" and then train "slow to go fast". In other words they run within a "zone" and over time they can run at a faster pace in that (slow) zone. Which results to running faster at max HR, pace, whatever.... The guy who introduced me and some friends to triathlon really follows this idea, and he's fast, really fast(and old 55yrs). Does this have it's place or is it a bunch of bull?

A year ago I threw all this kind of thinking in the trash, cause I was still slow! I started following what made sense to me and what I felt inside me. I train w/o a hrt monitor. The only use I have for the GPS is to find my way home. I also quite wearing a watch during races. I feel it slows me down, besides I'm there to beat everyone else's a$$, not a specific time      

Ultimately I don't want to peak... I want to BE THAT FAST!!

[Matthieu O’Halloran - "M@"]

Hey jozz thanks for your note!

A big chunk of athletes who approach us for coaching have similar stories.
Where they did all that "modern" stuff for a few years.
And did not see the improvement they wanted .

Then decided that their limited training allowance is best off spent on "meat and potatoes" 

I will take bold step and pick on the great Mark Allen.
Who is very big advocate on "zone" and low intensity training.

The reality is that Mark was a very fast swimmer and runner out of university.
Thus having developed a HUGE aerobic capacity.
Prior to doing the long slow training.
So he already had that deep speed in his body and only needed to touch it up.

But then, newbie age groupers decide to follow what he did at the *ZENITH* of his career.
Completely ignoring the PROCESS of what made his entire career.

So the improvements are rarely the same for an athlete who dont have such pedigree.

Of course theres lots of exceptions.
Some get into triathlon and are just good regardless.
Or have some random background.
So its pretty hard to find the greatest common denominator.

But at TeamTBB we believe that there are no short cuts.
That the most important piece of equipement is your body.
As well to your most important computer is your brain 

[bob]

He Matthieu,

thanks for sharing!

it is always great to read stuff about the fast runners, Kenians or old school "Western" runners. Lots of strong paced steady running over moderate distances seem to be the common factor behind all succes!

btw. There is an interesting article in the lore of running about Mark Allen and his low heart rate training in a chapter of the Lore of Running by Tim Noakes. When Mark Allen was in good shape he ran as fast as 3:20 min/km if I recall correctly. Was definitely not so slow for base work     But somehow that never made the scientific tri books 

[Matthieu O’Halloran - "M@"]

Hey bob your welcomed!

The history of sport is very interesting.
Where you have plenty of various athletes who have succeeded using different extremes.
According to work what worked for them.
As they have learned from those who came before them.
Through their success and failures...

One thing is for sure.
All athletes have different emotional needs, physical weakness/strengths and pedigree.
And to claim one way works best is silly.
As a good coach will be able to READ HIS ATHLETE and tailor his training accordingly.

One thing that EVERY successful athlete had in common.
Is the BELIEF in their approach.

Because at the end of the day.
To believe in the wrong plan is better to NOT believe in the right plan!

[jozz]

Matthew

It's funny how you "picked on" Mark Allen as that's who the guys I know point to as the example. I often wondered about this claim because of his background before he started the "zone" system. There are so many variables that play into each persons abilities/progress at any one point. It's interesting that so many triathletes hang onto "one" system as the end all be all and don't think criticaly about what they are doing. I think they prefer not to think for themselves and just follow an "expert". It's the easy thing to do.
 

[terrence]

the big plus about coaching is you dont have to think just do ,but its hard give your future to someone else but when you do you get a lot more time to train

[Jurassic]

Hey jozz thanks for your note!

A big chunk of athletes who approach us for coaching have similar stories.
Where they did all that "modern" stuff for a few years.
And did not see the improvement they wanted .

Then decided that their limited training allowance is best off spent on "meat and potatoes" 

I will take bold step and pick on the great Mark Allen.
Who is very big advocate on "zone" and low intensity training.

The reality is that Mark was a very fast swimmer and runner out of university.
Thus having developed a HUGE aerobic capacity.
Prior to doing the long slow training.
So he already had that deep speed in his body and only needed to touch it up.

But then, newbie age groupers decide to follow what he did at the *ZENITH* of his career.
Completely ignoring the PROCESS of what made his entire career.

So the improvements are rarely the same for an athlete who dont have such pedigree.

Of course theres lots of exceptions.
Some get into triathlon and are just good regardless.
Or have some random background.
So its pretty hard to find the greatest common denominator.

But at TeamTBB we believe that there are no short cuts.
That the most important piece of equipement is your body.
As well to your most important computer is your brain 

Matty,

The reality is this...

Mark Allen had rather low 'threshold' numbers.

Such that his 'Aerobic Max' cycling ceiling was pretty much top of our best aerobic.
Ok, for run it was more Mod-like.

But, he liked to punch it a lot on the bike, so a good percentage of his training was 'quality' aerobic.

The HR's weren't at all 'that' low on a relative basis.

[DamienC]

I have a slightly different view on why Mark Allen became "better" when he switched to a lower heart rate based training program, and it is basically something I have seen with many athletes, and validated by comments Doc has made on these forums before: maybe Mark was making the same mistake that many triathletes nowadays make, and that is that they train too hard.  Or rather, that they train too hard too often.  Mark switched to zone based training after talking to Dr Phil Mafetone, who maybe saw that Mark was doing too much quality, while neglecting his basic aerobic engine, and this was a way of getting Mark to work on that lower end of his engine.

[doc]

boys
all just speculation , what you think .
the variables are many .
but what is not .
is what matt described 
marc allen went to uni on a swim and run scholarship
swam 1500,  for ncaa uni
and ran country and track there before he new what a triathlon was
fact .
the engine my friends was well and truly built before he sat his arse on a bike .
just as ron clarke
before he retired as austral an jr champion  at a ripe old age , of about 18
trained on pure interval training  reps reps and more reps
so many it sickened him and he gave it away , but when he came back
he vowed not to do boring intervals or to write down his training again , he wanted to do it awe natural
be careful fellas what you speculate .
digging deeper can sometimes  sour the legends .

[triman10]

Can someone provide a direct link to the post about Ron Clarke....Can't find it anywhere

Cheers
Paul

[Matthieu O’Halloran - "M@"]

Hey Paul here it is enjoy!

http://blogs.teamtbb.com/mathieuohalloran/2012/03/14/the-myth-of-long-slow-running-by-ron-clarke/

[Sugar]

i was coached and trained by mark when he lived here in encinitas, many years ago.

even thou his method is controlled by hr, you either training at or below a set hr for anywhere from 8-12 weeks, depending if you were improving on the 'test run' which was run on the track, mile repeats of anywhere from 3-6 at your target hr. depending how aerobic fit you were getting your mile splits would go down in time at same target hr. of course you would hit a platue and then you get some speed/fartlek workouts to break through that platue.

in marks early years in triathlon, he would train with Scott Tinley and Scott Molina and others and would just bash themselves with mileage and intensity. So when after years of that, mark could see that was ok, but hawaii results weren't there, he started being coached by Phil Maffatone who got him on hr and training more specific and more aerobic and intensity balanced for 'him'.

i'm sure doc would of ran his tests with mark and would known what method would of worked best for 'him', like doc has done for his athlete's. as we know everyone is different for the most part.

[Joseph]

intensity depends a lot on volume
as with very high volume, you have far less intensity and heart rate
for long distance run and bike success
you don't need above-threshold training
(swim, this is different)
however, without going fast
you will never go fast
especially if you are time constricted
what most AGers do wrong
they go too hard on their easy sessions
and too soft on their hard ones