New approach to Long Course Training

[Gandalf]

Doc, you have mentioned a few times that Chrissie is not on a typical long course training regime, yet 4-0 in IM racing + the long distance achievements on the side. Over my very limited few years of watching Ironman racing, I've noticed that a lot of short(er) course athletes are stepping up and having immediate success at IM distance (Simon Lessing, Sam McGlone, Michellie Jones, Leanda Cave, Craig Alexander.....) . The 70.3 series has been a great bridge to enabling that success, but nevertheless, some of the results seem to fly in the face of all long distance conventional wisdom.

Has the IM series not had the best athletes out there? Have they been training wrong? I'd be interested in your thoughts.

[AndyS]

What is the long distance conventional wisdom? I thought conventional wisdom said to get fast first then go long. To many age groupers make the mistake of going long to soon, before they have any real speed.

[doc]

good point ,
whose conventional wisdom .?
ex athletes ,
this is what i did , but dont do it ,this is what i think i should have done with experience ,
i know better now .
i am a coach , 

[Gandalf]

What is the long distance conventional wisdom? I thought conventional wisdom said to get fast first then go long. To many age groupers make the mistake of going long to soon, before they have any real speed.

OK good question. Not my conventional wisdom, but the conventional wisdom of the long course pros who have been around for a long while. They should have a significant advantage over the short course guys that step up.

So to rephrase my question. Is what the short course guys are doing, better for long course, than what the long course guys are currently doing... whatever that may be?

[AndyS]

It's a complex question, Gandalf, but I'm prepared to make a fool of myself by saying something on it. 

I'm a regular on another forum in the UK and we get many questions about how to get fast at Ironman as if there's a special way to do it for Ironman just because it's so long. People ask things like "I want to go sub 4 on the run, how?" and when you quiz them it turns out they have a 5k pb of 25 minutes. What they fail to see is that the 25 min 5k is directly linked to their marathon time and that if they worked on their 5k time their marathon time would automatically fall. But 5k isn't Ironman so they don't work on it and instead they continue to look for 'the secret' to get fast at Ironman, usually by running even longer or doing more tempo runs and generally totally knackering themselves out.

To turn this around, our short course friends have worked on their 5k and 10k times for years without worrying about their marathon times. They've coped a lot better with the training, recovered from it all and gained a whole heep of speed that's safely stored in the bank. Then later on they decide to go long and all they have to worry about is going long, their speed at 5/10k will automatically make them faster at longer distance than people who haven't worked on their shorter run distance speed (or swim/bike).

It amazes me how many people fail to make the connection with being fast at shorter races will lead to faster longer races. If you want to get a whole load faster at Ironman then take a year off from Ironman and work on your Olympic distance speed. Then step back up to IM, I bet you'll be a lot faster.

[doc]

no and yes ,
does that help ?
sorry ,
andys  is on to something but the bike , is sososo different .
and what most fail to see , is in ironman if the bike kills you ,it kills your run too .
so all the speed in the world dont help when your walking

[lee]

When I think long course "conventional wisdom", I think in terms of massive amounts of long slow distance, rack up the miles. Eschew "speed" work in favor of grinding out even more miles. What I find interesting is that, in a lot of cases, what these advocates did to become fast isn't necessarily what they are currently advocating.

What they did to get that 95%, is a little different than what they need to get that last 5%. As a result, you see a lot of age groupers following that 5% protocol and doing training that isn't really appropriate. As Marc points out in his literature/blog, this approach only works one 'system'. It's one-dimensional, so you're not getting optimal training. You're only focusing on one piece of the pie.

[Gandalf]

AndyS,
I was really considering the level of the Pros rather than those trying to break a 4 hour marathon on the run. But, since you went there, I've got to agree with Doc (always the safe option). In all my IMs, I know within the first few steps of the marathon exactly what kind of run I am going to have. Conclusion, my run potential in an IM is much more linked to my overall status of how I got off the bike than it was my running ability. Run a straight 4 hour marathon. Easy. do it backwards, do it on one leg, blindfold, hands behind my back no problem. Run a sub 4 hour marathon after an IM bike..... Hmmmmm Didn't get close on my first 4 attempts. becoming a better cyclist and paying attention to my nutrition was necessary. When i could do that I cracked 4  hours and then some.

But all those issues are linked to AGer getting into and developing into semi respectable triathletes. But I'm more interested in at the top tend. let's say, Simon Lessing, who won first IM (LP 2004) with a ridiculously fast run split for the first 21.1Km before easing off. Craig Alexander, 2nd at Kona on first attempt at the distance after being a short(er) course guy. Just seems to me that this should have got some people thinking about what is the best training regimen for long Course.

[AndyS]

That was my point, Lessing did an amazing run split at LP because he had plenty of speed from his 4x world chaps at ITU distance. He has speed because he did short course for a long time before moving up, rather than going straight in at long distance. I used the AG scenario as an analogy (kind of).

[doc]

as a coach ,
that knows what he is doing , i sit backand cry to how simon finnished his career .

we was a seensational athlete , and let one drug fueled now proven 80m sprint wreck his stellar career
americans just dont know how good he was .
he was allen standard , and coached properly would have turned ironman on its head .
but
he listened to conventional wisdom ,
what is it  'go long ' my son , he did and he went down

[lee]

I've got to agree with Doc (always the safe option)

We're all just dilettantes compared to doc...  

[lee]

Just seems to me that this should have got some people thinking about what is the best training regimen for long Course.

I don't know if you can fit it into a regimen, per se... Look at what doc has Larsen doing, for example. Not very conventional, but look at the results! That said, I think what Ironguides is doing by offering a smorgasbord of different plans for varying levels/distances/weaknesses would work for the vast majority of people. Sort of a triathlon "best practices", if you will.

Michael McCormack is a coach that also takes somewhat of a different tack than the conventional wisdom.

It gets too fuzzy & dangerous talking in generalities like this, but it's a good pastime while drinking the morning coffee.

[adal]

... In all my IMs, I know within the first few steps of the marathon exactly what kind of run I am going to have...

Hmh ... somehow I do as well.

Because I know, that I will run a decent half marathon an then explode. The explosion can be terrible (1st half 1:40 for a total of 3:50) or more acceptable (1st half 1:40 for a total of 3:35) but I don't feel it coming at all.

In one of my more terrible tris, you could have asked me at km 20, and I would have said, I can run that speed till the end, but at km22 I was walking ...

Absolutely no idea why, based on the numbers I should be able to run a 3:20, but in reality, I am loosing at least 15minutes in the second half of the run. No idea why ...

Lack of base? Lack of speedwork? Lack of 10km running speed? Wrong shoes? Wrong Shirt? Wrong ... whatever ... no idea to be honest.

Working with Marcs plan now, will tell you after 1st of November, whether that changed it 

[AndyS]

Lack of base? Lack of speedwork? Lack of 10km running speed? Wrong shoes? Wrong Shirt? Wrong ... whatever ... no idea to be honest.

...More bike.

Not that I'd know, I blow up spectacularly long before I put on my run shoes. 

[adal]

Lack of base? Lack of speedwork? Lack of 10km running speed? Wrong shoes? Wrong Shirt? Wrong ... whatever ... no idea to be honest.

...More bike.

Not that I'd know, I blow up spectacularly long before I put on my run shoes. 

I ride around 5:00 with very little effort. Did a training IM 2 weeks ago with 135 km sub 150 HR (VERY low for me) and the remaining bike between 150-155.

Felt crusing all the time, rode a 4:57 and ran the first HIM as slow as I could (my usual 1:40).

Finished in 9:51, still a PB and without going "all out", it was a training. But still the drop in running "speed" (is this really the word for that kind of shuffle) is too much.