New approach to Long Course Training

[Paulo]

as a coach ,
that knows what he is doing , i sit backand cry to how simon finnished his career .

we was a seensational athlete , and let one drug fueled now proven 80m sprint wreck his stellar career
americans just dont know how good he was .
he was allen standard , and coached properly would have turned ironman on its head .
but
he listened to conventional wisdom ,
what is it  'go long ' my son , he did and he went down

Excellent example. Moving to Boulder and listening to the wrong kind of people was the end of Simon Lessing. His win at IMLP still stands like one of the most amazing IM performances ever.

[Marc]

Adal, congrats on the new PB!

[Marilyn]

Hey,

Careful what you say unless you know for sure. I know Simon and have for a few years. One of the smartest, greatest athlete's I've ever met. And he did NOT ever get "sucked" into the long training. He has always done his own way, join him if you want, or he goes alone.
He fell off after L.P because he had a very bad back, just ask AJ how hard that is. He finally had surgery when it got so bad he couldn't lift his little girl anymore or struggled to tie his shoes.

He is , and always will be a very smart athlete and I think repect should be given where due.

Just standing up for a great athlete who has gotten allot of slack over the years when people don't take the time to know really what happened. He takes allot of crap, when he should get allot of respect.

Just saying......

Cheers,
M

[pantani]

He went well at the Boulder Peak (Olympic distance) - 2nd to Matty Reed only a month before Matty went to Beijing.

[doc]

we selected ironguides ,
for the basic reason , that they tailor your training around your life circumstances not your hr , or lactate tests.
in the pro squad , i have may be 5 different sub groups in what is best training , with girls , i have some that are livving on the track and others that ddont . they both on fire race day.
boys you can to and fro all you want ,
each individual , needs to be  looked at as that ,but also for age groupers their life circumstances have to be taken into account .
i have an athlete , and i get 24/hours , to plan what they do , they dont have a family , they dont have an outside job ,, if they have partners ,iss nearly for sure they are in the squad .
so , we can be very specific .
as a coach , i sometimes need 3 month to fully get to know my athlete , sometimes 6 ,
i have made on some athletes 4 different swim strokes  , over that time , to see which one fits best ,
now that said ,
age groupes can do it in a 6 week plan , no way .
ironguides produces different levels , and a coach service , if given time , they will find the right "suit "size
for you , thats what i do basically at pro level .
they are dedicated their business plan  , to do similiar , that is why we are proud for them to be a partner .
its a rational approach ,in a sport  , that when viewed incorrectly can become very irrational .
so, me giving advise , about "what s the problem " over a feel for a message on a board , well , that would be irrational too.
what we do here is , try to be honest ,strait to the point , and helpful , the above posts ,
are perfect examples of some one being needed to sit down and sift thru all the pieces ,for each person , and then plot a coarse, then give it a good go for 4 months minimum .
to see if it is the right track ,
the money saved , gets pretty special , if your problems are worked out , and it can be that simple
hillary biscay , came to me , and was before alway getting stress fractures injuries and o whole heap
of issues while she was following traditional wisdom ,
i took one look at her and could see , this was no conventional girl , run technique or body mechanics
we built her program of what she needed, not to change , but to compliment what she had .
welshy and all can go on about the right foot flick ,
that right foot flick , with a very big heart has taken   a 12h27 or 47  ironman finnisher
to the top of an ironman podium .  no flick  no cash.
it didnt happen , with conventional wisdom , and it was never gonna happen ,
we developed a plan , that suited hillarys  strengths , and pandered to her weakness .
hillary runs on the track a lot ,
but she never does track work
her drill on track , is finnished off with a withering 400 m  the time to break 1min35 and the boss is very happy .
she used to get very frustrated , watching others punching out 1m14 s now she is at ease with it , and is happy too , because while all the prancing ponies are out injured or saving up for the big race .
hillaries wracked up 8 ironman all in the top 5 ,
fellas it aint about the bike or swim or the run , for age groupers , you need to add in the work , the family ,  its about getting the mix right .
you do that , and it all comes into balance .
as steve is showing , you can teach an old dog new tricks . but the dog has got to be listening .

[Paulo]

Marilyn,

You definitely got my post wrong, because I have HUGE respect for Simon Lessing... HUGE! He is one of the greatest triathletes of all time, period.

[bob]

First of all: I am a self coached athlete that makes his own training plans. So I am constantly learning something new, so the opinions below might be different next year. Still I want to reply this because I think I learned something this year about the volume/intensity discussion. I observed a few "strange" peaks in performances last year, on moments that I would never expect. And after training hard and and high volume, I only felt worse.

My main observation of this year is that hard work in either the swim or the run makes me slower. I start to slow down if I start doing a few really long swims or a few really long runs. And I start slowing down as well after starting with fast interval sessions. I tried to overcome the problem by slowing down and still do the "long days". But slowing down to make it easier only made the problems worse because slowing down makes me slower as well.

I think that the problem is caused by my poor running and swimming style. Not by having a too small engine. My engine is not a problem at all in my opinion, except on the bike. That is why I guess that the bike is so different. Biking has very little to do with technique. If I start with doing hard work on the bike, I still improve. Hard work=bigger engine=more power. Biking is easy sport.

I noticed already a few years ago that shifting from running to triathlon that my running improved by doing less. But I never understood why. I noticed already that swimming a lot makes me slower. I never understood why. I think I know now why it is. I think I can train myself until the moment that my running/swimming technique gets even worse than normal. I think now that pros don't do this differently. The difference is that their technique/style is not declining under some stress. They can under go more pain, hold form, and still improve because they improve their engine. Take a look at top marathon runners in the last miles. Their running style is not even changing a lot while they experience a lot of pain. This might be why they can get better of the hard training, and that I get worse after copying it. I don't hold my run style under the same amount of stress. Conclusion for me: the highest training load is the load that makes me keeping the style/technique as good as possible. Doing more=performing less.

And in the end I will speculate on long distance succes of short course guys or girls. The short distance athletes never experienced the pressure to do miles beyond their maximum capacity to hold form. This might be why they slow down after they are pushed to do the miles instead of doing the highest amount of good quality training time. Slowing down to do miles, can slow the athlete down in the end.

[scottf]

Listening to the old procyclists from the 60s here in Cologne....
In the off season from october to jan
The north itallians at the time in the winter were doing lots of long hikes in heavy boots in the mountains in italy and some short intervals on the roller cos the weather was so bad
The German guys were doing medium rides ont eh road with fixed 68inch gears at 110-130rpm for 2-3 hrs...and 3hard cyclocross sessions in the woods...so a good mixture of hard and easy....not much in the middle.And some gym work 2-3 times a week as well
What they instictivly realised is with 60s clothing in a typical winter in north europe flogging yourself in this weater for long periods was bad for the immune system...so you cant recover and get strong on this type of effort...better short and max int he woods and some teqnique work on the roads.
Then from feb/march racing reguarly...in a race lots of easy recovery type of riding but with periods of hard efforts again...and thiy did this in blocks of shorter stage races/back to back day races.They just ramped up the length and intensity of these blocks and peaked for the big tours and worlds.
As that great character Obree said you can only train as hard as you can recover...soo the big question is how can i change things to make sure i am fresh to hit it again quickly...the answer for a pro with no outside distractions is a lot simpler than a working AG athlete...

[Marc]

we selected ironguides ,
for the basic reason , that they tailor your training around your life circumstances not your hr , or lactate tests.
in the pro squad , i have may be 5 different sub groups in what is best training , with girls , i have some that are livving on the track and others that ddont . they both on fire race day.
boys you can to and fro all you want ,
each individual , needs to be  looked at as that ,but also for age groupers their life circumstances have to be taken into account .
i have an athlete , and i get 24/hours , to plan what they do , they dont have a family , they dont have an outside job ,, if they have partners ,iss nearly for sure they are in the squad .
so , we can be very specific .
as a coach , i sometimes need 3 month to fully get to know my athlete , sometimes 6 ,
i have made on some athletes 4 different swim strokes  , over that time , to see which one fits best ,
now that said ,
age groupes can do it in a 6 week plan , no way .
ironguides produces different levels , and a coach service , if given time , they will find the right "suit "size
for you , thats what i do basically at pro level .
they are dedicated their business plan  , to do similiar , that is why we are proud for them to be a partner .
its a rational approach ,in a sport  , that when viewed incorrectly can become very irrational .
so, me giving advise , about "what s the problem " over a feel for a message on a board , well , that would be irrational too.
what we do here is , try to be honest ,strait to the point , and helpful , the above posts ,
are perfect examples of some one being needed to sit down and sift thru all the pieces ,for each person , and then plot a coarse, then give it a good go for 4 months minimum .
to see if it is the right track ,
the money saved , gets pretty special , if your problems are worked out , and it can be that simple
hillary biscay , came to me , and was before alway getting stress fractures injuries and o whole heap
of issues while she was following traditional wisdom ,
i took one look at her and could see , this was no conventional girl , run technique or body mechanics
we built her program of what she needed, not to change , but to compliment what she had .
welshy and all can go on about the right foot flick ,
that right foot flick , with a very big heart has taken   a 12h27 or 47  ironman finnisher
to the top of an ironman podium .  no flick  no cash.
it didnt happen , with conventional wisdom , and it was never gonna happen ,
we developed a plan , that suited hillarys  strengths , and pandered to her weakness .
hillary runs on the track a lot ,
but she never does track work
her drill on track , is finnished off with a withering 400 m  the time to break 1min35 and the boss is very happy .
she used to get very frustrated , watching others punching out 1m14 s now she is at ease with it , and is happy too , because while all the prancing ponies are out injured or saving up for the big race .
hillaries wracked up 8 ironman all in the top 5 ,
fellas it aint about the bike or swim or the run , for age groupers , you need to add in the work , the family ,  its about getting the mix right .
you do that , and it all comes into balance .
as steve is showing , you can teach an old dog new tricks . but the dog has got to be listening .

Thanks mate. We try to tell 'em, we try...

[irncpl]

Biking has very little to do with technique. If I start with doing hard work on the bike, I still improve. Hard work=bigger engine=more power. Biking is easy sport.

Have to disagree here.  Technique is (almost) everything, be it swim, bike, or run.  The more efficient we can be, the better we will be, everything else being equal.  A good bike set-up with good pedalling dynamics will make quite a considerable difference. 
Triathletes spend a lot of time in the pool doing drills to improve swim technique, yet that only counts for around 1 hour of the IM day.  Hands up who does the same on the bike or run?

Sure you can bike and run miles and you will improve.  You can get also get better by being more efficient with your cycling and running.  The person who can hold the best form when tired wins. 

Lose form, lose pace, lose race.

[doc]

wrong web site .
for triathlon , its the minumum , effect on time improvement  for, ironman .
this is my secret , and frustrates me .
i get it , and others dont .
i have had champion athletes in swimming , and running , before i ever did triathlon .
there is so little correlation , in training a triathlete , and the single sport specification .
people
cream , cheese , yoghurt , are all made out of milk , but they are 3 different things .

[pb]

this  is  one of  your   shorter  posts, jet  maybe the most intriguing, you have written so  far.

Looking  at your athletes,proves   you right,  some of them   are  note  quite   text  book  style, but much   faster  than they look like..(and  thats  good  enough  for  me, who   by  nature  is  a  bit  a  a  technique  freak,  but  changing  my   mind )
what  are  you actually doing  with   the  milk?,  and what ingredients do you add?
How  do   you  decide   which  athlete  gets which  ingredient and  how  you process  them.
It  seems like  you keep   it simple  and dont  mess much with   the  milk,  yet   you  get  a  very  interesting  product,often with a  different  wrap  around, but mostly   the  product  inside  gets  faster .....

when   do  you  know  you  have  to   change  your   mixture?     
p

[AndyS]

What? You saying I should be drinking more milk? 

There is no 'one size fits all' when it comes to technique or training so don't sink all your efforts into what any text book says.

[doc]

have you ever sat and thought about what type of guy writes a text book ?
i ponder these things rather the aerodynamics , of handle bar tape .
i give you 2 examples i had in life to make me wary of text books .

1/ i was 14 , and went to this brainiac school , i got a scolarship , for passing some poor kids test .
so of course i was out of my depth there , so many stupid people , but they got good marks ,
any way i degress .
we had this history  master , and he was famous , he wrote the text book , for the whole of the australian syllibus, and i read that darn thing 20 times ,not for school but because he was making it so interesting
it was a work of brilliance and i could see why every school of the higher level history modules used it .
but in the class  room ,
this guy was the dullest , uninspiring guy , he would not have had the agots to get selected as dopey in the 7 dwarfs ,
such a dissapointemnt , for me .

no2/
the best swimming manuals that were ever written in swimming while i was there
was swimming faster by ernie maglishio ,
now i meet ernie , and a nicer man you would have never meet .
but
ernie was head coach at berkely uni  i think no bakersfield , oh i dont know hillary help me out .
and he held the position for 20 yrs .
and  he could  not take that teamm out of ncaa  division 3 , even though he was famous ,for the books
and they were terrific , ooohhh detailed , man could that guy sell bernoulis principles , like ice to eskimos .
but ernie
well
ernie in my opinion could  not coach fish to swim , and 20 yrs of trying  proved it .
did it mean he didtn know  his stuff .
let me tell you , i bet doc councillman has ernies book out 2 a month , its a classic .
but ernie  had all this knowledge , but , could not pass it on
so ,
the answer about the text book ,
i read em , cause contrary to conventional wisdom on slowtwits , thank you for that on some other web site
but so apt , i am a walking  text book .
pull my ear and i can pop out training programs by all the great , in swimming , or running ,
biking ,i have seeked out and  sat with bernard hinault , dined greame obree , talked to lemond
lunched with steve ovett , had about 10 meetings with the great herb elliot , same amount with the great ron clarke , spoke at length with ondieki , koemans ,the great paul tergat ,conversed with the late great arthur liddyard , and the list goes on ,
but , all the above , had  the one thing in common ,
they didnt believe in bullshit and gimmicks .
they thought they got to the top because they worked for it , and as such deserved to be the best .
i sought out the men and women that climbed the mountain,
over sitting reading text books by guys who wished they could .
if some of the triathlon coaches did the same , i might have some competition .

[hillary]

yep, boss, ernie maglischo , the author of some of the best-selling swimming textbooks, coached at cal state universities chico and bakersfield, amongst others. and yes, pretty much all of his success occurred at the ncaa division 2 level--not exactly a hotbed for world-class swimming.